Bossfrog Double Hoop or Hard Dog Ace
 

It's time to add a roll bar to my Miata, and would like everyone's opinion. Car is a 2000, and I would like the option of eventually being able to install a hard top. I am trying to decide between the Bossfrog Double hoop, and the Hard Dog Ace.

My 96 Miata had the Hard Dog Hardcore with double diagonals in it, and I liked it just fine. The only issue I had was it made it more difficult to put the top up while still seated in the car. I'm 6ft tall, my head was maybe an inch under level with the Hardog on stock seats without a helmet.

The Ace is SCCA and HPDE legal with a diagonal brace. The Bossfrog states it is SCCA compliant, I assume this also passes HPDE standards. The car is daily driven, with the intentions of maybe an occasional track day.

Owners of either bar, please help me with your personal experiences!

I had no issues with my Hard Dog. Liked it a lot. Also had the boss frog, did not like as much, it was the clear view. I didn't like how the install was, or how the bar looked.

Hard Dog Ace.

I have the Boss Frog. Its gorgeous, its 6-point, and yes it is HPDE legal. Personally, I liked the way it looks much more than the hard dogs...and you can still use your rear-view mirror.

Lastly, Boss Frog comes with a "harness" bar built in (although I haven't tested fitted any harnesses on it yet). And the padding is much cheaper.

Track,

You have the double hoop? Where in NC are you located?

Did you need the seat belt adapters? What do you mean by it has the harness bar built in. BF sells a harness bar separately, is the curved brace what you are talking about?

https://www.miataforumz.com/attachme...ine=1312508129

Wow, that is the most compelling argument I've ever heard!!! :ohnoes:

Please let me know why you think the ace is better. :D

You can get the Hard Dog with a harness bar welded in place. Or you can get their bolt in harness bar.

I could use my rearview just fine with my hard Dog.

I am in Raleigh, NC. I will be passing close to charlotte on my way to Road Atlanta this weekend. If you like, we can try to meet up on sunday on the way back if you would like to see the double hoop on an NB.

The seat belt adapters are included for free (they weren't originally, thats why you see them for sale on some sites). The harness bar I am talking about is the brace which is curved in that picture, but mine is NOT. I have one that is straight, but at an angle. A curved bar would not work as a harness bar really, they angle probably doesn't matter though as one of the shoulder harnesses would just be a bit longer. I have the version which allows for hardtops (I think that is the standard). I also have the padding on there, and the extremely expensive and useless wind blocker (I also have the door bars if you are interested in those).

While some of you can use the center rear-view, I know atleast 5 guys (in person) who can't see ---- out of the center rear-view mirror with the hard dog bars. perhaps you are just the right size FRT_fun. Lastly, the boss frog you won't have to pay extra for the harness bar. Although I get the feeling with padding they will both be around the same price.

I have the Hard Dog M2 Sport Double Diagonal and have no problems with rearward visibility.

*shugs* maybe they are exaggerating then. or maybe I just understood differently.

Eitherway, I think rear-visibility will be fine, you can tilt your head to see and that really shouldn't be a big deciding factor. but hands down the double will have better visibility (if its marginal or not, thats for the OP to determine). If he has concerns over it, he can read many discussions about it on google or what not, I have never driven a car with a hard dog in it so I can't say.

the big things are price, installation (more difficult on the boss frog), and preference here. They both serve the same purpose and seem to do it very well. Only significant difference I see is the boss frog is 6-point mount and the hard dog is 4-point mount (and possibly pricing depending on the HD options).

Rear visibility in my 96 with the Hardcore wasn't too bad, but a double hoop would be better. Installation is very similar to the Hardcore I previously installed, so I'm not worried about that.

Track, PM me your plans for the weekend please. Depending on your schedule, I may be able to meet up. Thanks!

they both get the job done, just depends on price and what you think looks better. I chose Hard Dog for those reasons

mb on not sending you a message! I pm'd you about alternate plans though.

Get the Hard Dog Hard Core Double Diagonal. It has 6 points for mounting and has decent visibility out the back. If you plan on doing any SCCA events the double-hoop design will not pass tech inspection.

Bossfrog is actually just north of me. The few installs I've seen them do with their clearview and harness bars are cleeeeeeaaan! Looked almost oem in the car. When I get mine I'm driving up there to have them install it.

Thanks for the advice, but that wasn't one of the options listed. I had a hardcore double diagonal in the past, and want something different now. AFAIK, none of the Hard Dog bars come with a letter from a PE, Boss Frog does. http://www.bossfrog.biz/pdf/BF.Double.Hoop.Testing.pdf

Well if you're just going for looks then it really doesn't matter which one you get; it would boil down to just personal preference and which one would clear the top of your head better. Interesting how they got a Mechanical Engineer (not necessarily a PE) to test it out. I still trust real world results more compared to an engineer's calculations & tests not done in the actual car. It's real world results like the photo below that get me to purchase their equipment. I would stick with the Hard Dog (Ace in your case, since that's the only option) but that's also partially because I'm not a fan of the BossFrog Double Maxx design.

https://www.miataforumz.com/attachme...ine=1313546893

The very first post in this thread says I intend to go to the occasional track day, the bar is not for cosmetics.

If you go to a track day with a Track Dog bar, what documentation can you provide that the bar meets SCCA requirements?

Boss Frog compares their bar to the SCCA requirements here http://www.bossfrog.biz/pdf/BF.Doubl...nformation.pdf . I was not able to find similar information for Track Dog bars.

Not true and not true. Its 4 points mounting and I have passed a combined NASA+SCCA tech with the boss frog double. THSCC runs the more stringent regulation of the two, especially when it comes to convertibles. I passed tech like normal and the event steward saw my double and didn't have a problem with it.

The boss frog double is effectively a single hoop for each passenger.

Yes, I understand that is in your first post but if it's an "occasional" track day you're most likely not going to be pushing all that hard. Also with your comment stating "I want something different" indicating that it's more of a physical appearance to you than functionality. Forgive me if I took this the wrong way.

The Hard Dog Ace is 4 points, the Hard Dog Hard Core is 6 points. I've installed several myself and know this for sure. There are 3 plates on either side. 1 is near the floor behind the seat, the next bolts in with the seat belt real, and the rear one is near the rear suspension on the side of the fuel tank... that would make 6 points.

It seems like I was misinformed about the Boss Frog not passing SCCA inspection. I will see if I can find that documentation again that my friend pointed out but I would not want to be caught rolling over a barricade with a double-hoop design. This is why I haven't pushed my S2000 on the track and I keep the Miata strictly as my track car.

I didn't say "I want something different" until after you incorrectly inferred that the bar was for cosmetic reasons. The basis for that comment was, again from the original post, "My 96 Miata had the Hard Dog Hardcore with double diagonals in it" - and now I want something other than that bar.

I was not aware that the seat belt brackets were considered a structural mounting point. When I previously installed my Hardcore, it had 4 mounting points - the 2 near the rear suspension, and the 2 directly behind the seats.

No, you made that statement before mine which is why I quoted you on it when I made the cosmetic statement. Go back and check page 2 of the thread.

I would hope the seat belts of any car would be part of a structural mounting point. They must have changed the design since you last got yours then. Regardless, both the Ace and Double Hoop have 4+ mounting points and if they both pass the broom-stick test then you'll be clear for any track day by my experiences from dealing with tech at track days. It's down to a personal preference that you have to make. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

Thats wrong buddy. If that is the case, then the Boss frog has 8 points (technically it would be 10+ points, 2 bolts into each seatbelt tower, 1 for each rear leg, 2 for the transmission tunnel stradle, and 1 for each tub mount leg). 6 Points is a reference to the number of different points that it mounts into the chassis. The seat belt and the leg that is beside the seat is one point. Its not about the number of bolts, but rather the number of "legs" or "feet" that connect to the chassis. hell if it was about bolts, I could make one hell of an 8-point bar which just drills holes into the seat belt tower and simply runs across.

There is just two legs for each side:
http://www.bethania-garage.com/hardcore.htm


This arguement is moot right now. The OP is asking for advice on which one it is, we are not here to analyze the effectiveness of the boss frog, nor count the number of bolts/mounting points on each bar. As a matter of fact, I hardly think the number of mounting points is making a big difference. If you would like to discuss this, then lets make a new thread and throw ---- around as much as we like over there.

Read my post above yours, like we both said... it's a moot point. Carry on people, carry on. Sorry for the "over-analysis".

You don't need a letter to say your bar passes tech. It just needs to meet the specifications. You could have one made locally to the proper specifications or even build it yourself if you are so equipped and skilled and it would be perfectly legal. What you have there is a red herring. But if the letter makes you feel better, buy it. It is your decision and yours alone.

I had never previously considered the structural member that the seat belt assembly threads through as a mounting point for the roll bar but as constructed it does fit the bill. That is a strong structure and it's mounting location up high on the bar could only strengthen the transverse and longitudinal stability of the bar under a load.

After further contemplation of the rules...
I'm going to step out on a limb and speculate that the reason the double hoop bar comes with a letter stating that it is in compliance is because someone was disallowed the ability to participate with it previously. Most double hoop bars commonly seen are style bars. And most don't go the full width of the cabin with one continuous piece of DOM steel. I'm going to guess that someone had a bad day in tech because the legality of the design of the bar came into question and the Boss Frog folks needed to take action to provide support for their buyers as a reactive measure. See below.

NASA's CCR states the following in the HPDE section:
11.4.7 Roll Bars
All open cars should have a roll bar installed to help protect the occupant(s) from injury during a roll-over. The roll bar should be able to withstand the compressional forces involved in supporting the full weight of the car. The roll bar‟s main hoop should extend the full width of the car (except certain cars that have been approved by NASA). The main hoop shall be one continuous piece with smooth bends and no evidence of crimping or wall failure shall be present (i.e. should be Mandrel bends). All welds should be of the highest possible quality, with full penetration [Ref15.6.15)]. All cars with roll bars are required to have adequate roll bar padding per CCR section #15.6.4. In cases where the driver‟s head may come in contact with the roll bar should the seatback fail, a seatback brace is required in conformance with section #15.6.22. The material and minimums are as follows: (All cars with full roll cages should conform to the applicable sections found in section #15.0.)

Vehicle weight DOM or ERW
Under 2000 lbs. 1.50" x .120”
2001 - 3500 lbs. 1.75" x .120"
Over 3500 lbs. 2.00" x .120"